Topic: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

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2 (edited by SaintVicious 2015-04-06 07:34:14)

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

The problem that jumped at me first was, mice/rats aren't self aware. We are.

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

These experiments barely translate to humans at all, really... We already have seen a great deal of living situations in history. Like most living situations have been tried, and we can look and see what happens.


http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/20 … story1.htm

Freedman’s work, Ramsden noted, suggested that density was no longer a primary explanatory variable for society’s ruin. A distinction was drawn between animals and humans.


“Rats may suffer from crowding; human beings can cope...Calhoun’s research was seen not only as questionable, but also as dangerous.”


Freedman suggested a different conclusion, though. Moral decay resulted “not from density, but from excessive social interaction,” Ramsden explained. “Not all of Calhoun’s rats had gone berserk. Those who managed to control space led relatively normal lives.” Striking the right balance between privacy and community, Freedman argued, would reduce social pathology. It was the unwanted unavoidable social interaction that drove even fairly social creatures mad, he believed. Culture and upbringing also play key roles in adapting to environment, others suggested.


Further studies of space design seemed to prove this. One such study compared students living in two different styles of college dormitory— corridor versus a suite style. Those in the corridor perceived the environment as crowded and exhibited increased stress levels. Those in the suite style, where the dormitory was partitioned into a series of separate communal areas, fared better, even though the level of density was similar, Ramsden said. “By comparing the two, [researchers] were able to provide evidence both of pathology and its amelioration through more effective design.


“Calhoun’s studies remained influential in places,” Ramsden concluded, “but for the social sciences more generally, it seemed that simply associating Calhoun’s rodent universes with pathology instead of its amelioration was an opportunity considered too attractive or perhaps too convenient to miss.”


Plus, why would anyone think there's going to be a "post scarcity"? There will always be scarcity. The amount of scarcity may be reduced for some things, like food and livable conditions, but for most things there will still be scarcity. Unless we can just make shit out of nothing someday. Even then, I don't see any evidence indicating the loss of scarcity caused these mice and rats to go mad. It was space constraints and the way the living conditions were designed.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Live_in_Public

Is kind of more similar to the conditions of this rat experiment than just general living

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

SaintVicious wrote:

The problem that jumped at me first was, mice/rats aren't self aware. We do.

We have varying degrees of self-awareness. We live in a democracy (for the most part) where I would say the vast majority are not very self-aware. The least self-aware of us are the majority and have the majority of the vote. That is one of the flaws of democracy. Democracy appeals to the lowest common denominator.  Also not everyone lives in big cities.

You are right though in that what separates us from the rats is that we have some degree of self awareness. Some of us can be resistant to change. Some of us will always choose to avoid such environments and live in the countryside instead. Some of us can see the dangers of "progress". Which is why I don't believe we will ALL ever die out.

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

we need absolute knowledge

6 (edited by Ario 2015-04-06 13:13:29)

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

gore wrote:

I don't believe we will ALL ever die out.

The (possibility of an) eventual heat death of the Universe might settle the issue.
kek

absentinsomniac wrote:

I literally could not hate a group of people more than I hate the people who use darknedgy.net

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Ario wrote:
gore wrote:

I don't believe we will ALL ever die out.

The (possibility of an) eventual heat death of the Universe might settle the issue.
kek

lol billions of years away

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

lol. Post-scarcity utopia shall be overrun by stupid narcissistic hedonists only concerned about looks and food!

Still afaik humans are better able to cope with crowded conditions vs animals no? Crime and stuff tends to go up in those situations, though mostly from lack of resources rather than crowding. While the study was interesting and probably yielded some relevant information, the fact is that humans are pretty adaptable in most regards.

One thing I'm curious about is why post-apocalypse always supposedly leads to these people:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/15/article-1366320-0B2CCAD700000578-634_638x361.jpg
I mean do we become motor-addicted leather SM fetishists if human civilization collapses?

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Wes wrote:


^^ funny
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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Nothing to do with utopianism. Automation arises out of purely capitalistic concerns in cost savings and not having to deal with the fucking unions. Seriously, fuck the unions.

"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

brainiac3397 wrote:

I mean do we become motor-addicted leather SM fetishists if human civilization collapses?



Become? I don't know about you, but we are all pretty motor addicted I guess. And leather SM Fetish, well I don't know. Chaining slaves with money have proven to be more effective.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Hrm. Id better go buy some leather shit in case human civilization collapses.

Serious note though, I doubt we'll devolve into insanity. I think its just based off misconception of assuming we'll revert to a barbaric nature, which is reality was the Greek word of "Those none greeks living in the forest cities". I dont think we'll become sadistic hedonistic bikers.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

V.R. wrote:

Nothing to do with utopianism. Automation arises out of purely capitalistic concerns in cost savings and not having to deal with the fucking unions. Seriously, fuck the unions.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10258637_748756605158823_905449892610314518_n.png?oh=51ec5a8d6bf5047028e71f317b8069cf&oe=55AB1F20&__gda__=1437940486_c09e9cc372ab5dbee3737a1a4f473534

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

freedum

sloth wrote:

Comfy does not provide challenge, challenge provides success, success provides happiness. Our world is not comfy, although we tried to make it so. Slaves of our own inventions, yada, yada. Not only on a technological level, also on a social and political level. Nothing more but apes. Apes with psychosomatic disorders.

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

SwiftEscudo wrote:
V.R. wrote:

Nothing to do with utopianism. Automation arises out of purely capitalistic concerns in cost savings and not having to deal with the fucking unions. Seriously, fuck the unions.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10258637_748756605158823_905449892610314518_n.png?oh=51ec5a8d6bf5047028e71f317b8069cf&oe=55AB1F20&__gda__=1437940486_c09e9cc372ab5dbee3737a1a4f473534

a.

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

V.R. wrote:

Nothing to do with utopianism. Automation arises out of purely capitalistic concerns in cost savings and not having to deal with the fucking unions. Seriously, fuck the unions.

Except knowing the left, I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with a robot rights movement. I really wouldn't put it past them.

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Robits desere equal rights.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

gore wrote:
V.R. wrote:

Nothing to do with utopianism. Automation arises out of purely capitalistic concerns in cost savings and not having to deal with the fucking unions. Seriously, fuck the unions.

Except knowing the left, I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with a robot rights movement. I really wouldn't put it past them.

Theoretically, if AI would reach a point of human-level sapience, self-awareness, be able to indistinguishably emulate emotions and look out for its own survival, would you oppose robots having rights?

We already give animals certain rights, and they're far lesser than us (well, sometimes).

"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

We *are* robots. If a computer is executing the same operations or patterns, it's not different as far as cognition goes.

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

But robots would be significantly superior to its creators.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

they would presumably take over and kill us all duh


Like if a single machine with actual AI came about, and if it somehow decided humans are bad for it and it is driven to work for itslef, and it has computer-level processing of the future or whatever, then it could probably just take over everything real quick and get rid of us.


I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Theoretically, if AI would reach a point of human-level sapience, self-awareness, be able to indistinguishably emulate emotions and look out for its own survival, would you oppose robots having rights?

yes

We already give animals certain rights, and they're far lesser than us (well, sometimes).

>giving our food rights

HUMANITY WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

>> people with no concept of empathy


gl understanding anything ever

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Like if a single machine with actual AI came about, and if it somehow decided humans are bad for it and it is driven to work for itslef, and it has computer-level processing of the future or whatever, then it could probably just take over everything real quick and get rid of us.

But we should let them fight back because we are human shitlords and need to check our organic privilege. Living is a privilege. Don't you care for the struggles of the LG-BoT and Trans-human cyborg communities Absent?

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords

FUGGING GOMMIE :^DDDDD

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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

It'd be a weird scenario IMO. I mean if your the religious sort that believes God created you, we probably won't surpass God's powers anytime soon. Yet if we create smart machines, the likelihood they would become superior to us, the creators/life-givers.

That's like...much religious confusion. Man becomes Machine-God overthrown by it's creations, yet Man might never manage to overthrown Man-God.

I believe we must establish a new academic field called "Robo-Philosophy"

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
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Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

your empathy isn't worth shit