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#26 2015-04-08 00:28:34

gore
*looses shit internally*
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 6,235

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

absentinsomniac wrote:

>> people with no concept of empathy


gl understanding anything ever

>muh empathy

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But seriously,
I think the concept of animal rights was born from a place of emotion rather than reality. I mean we are at the top of the food pyramid. Would a tiger or wolf worry about if it hurts the deer they kill? Should we punish them for "animal cruelty"?


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#27 2015-04-08 00:37:12

Potato
Member
Registered: 2014-02-26
Posts: 581

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

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#28 2015-04-08 00:48:00

absentinsomniac
Administrator
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,808

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

I think you guys are bullshitting yourselves again. You act like you don't understand empathy, when you either are just outright ignoring it or are trying to win a political argument. Like stop fronting for five seconds. Empathy is universal in humans without psychopathy / sociopath some other spectrum anti-social disorder, it's retarded to act like you don't feel and use empathy literally every day to decide upon basic values and make decisions.


Animal "rights" are a thing because it is wrong to inflict unnecessary / excessive pain upon anything that notices and feels pain. Stop acting like a lawyer and trying to find some loophole to what I said, it's basically a universally agreed upon tennet of being a person who doesn't have a personality disorder. When I shot the deer hanging on my wall in the throat, I didn't do it on purpose, I was aiming for the heart. I didn't try to catch it and slowly cut it up while still alive. I didn't lock it in a small room and beat it or something. I did it in the most efficient manor I could. That's harm reduction. We should try to avoid inflicting harm on shit where we can, because it makes for a more comfortable existence for involved parties. Anyone who thinks otherwise is basically a piece of shit or completely naive, living in a fairy tail world of "it has it be this way, or that way, no in-between."


That kind of thinking is the same type of thinking vegans have. "haha u say 1 thng but not everybody goes out of their way 2 liv dat way". Yeah, who fucking cares? This isn't a world of straight lines and perfect shapes. Go fuck yourself with your shitty dichotomy thinking. We should work towards a less fucked up world. That's something almost universally agreed upon outside of fucktards who try to justify being a piece of shit to everyone based on the fact that there's already suffering and pain.


"lol there's already suffering and pain therefore there has to be". No, that's not how the world works at all. It's not one or the other. It's a spectrum, like everything else, and we've been heading in the right direction for a very long time. Things have gotten immensely better for us.


Fucc

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#29 2015-04-08 02:44:05

Potato
Member
Registered: 2014-02-26
Posts: 581

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

have you seen the ISIS video of the guy being burned alive, people being thrown off buildings, and stoned to death. there was this story of some kid in china who got hit by a vehicle which drove away, and the kid laid there dying and a bunch of people just walked past like nothings there. have you seen Abu Ghraib, the milgram experiment, medieval torture devices. the amount of the human capacity to experience empathy that translates into altruistic behavior or inhibition of sadistic tendencies is pathetically small, as has been demonstrated through all of history. human evolution works in a way that rewards selfish behavior much more than altruistic behavior, the little amount of empathy-driven altruism that people sometimes exhibit is probably just an unfavorable side effect of being socially adept, i.e. being good at manipulating other people. things have gotten better, but humans have had empathy since before recorded history, and they've been acting like savages until recently. much more important than empathy is the artificial moral contracts that people have sign into to protect themselves: oppose the torture of humans, or more specifically american citizens, or on american soil. how much more fucks would people give about the torture of a dangerous american gangster on american soil, than they do about the torture that went on in Guantanamo Bay. empathy is overrated

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#30 2015-04-08 02:57:54

absentinsomniac
Administrator
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,808

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

I don't believe altruism (like, real altruism not for yourself at all) even exists, at all. I don't think there's any real totally altruistic acts that aren't at least done to make oneself feel good. That's not what I think empathy is for. I think it's important to have in order to figure out why other people do what they do, and I think it's important to use to figure out what values you want to have, personally. People always act in their self interest, and self interest generally drives towards a better society, but that's only *sometimes* the case, in *some* situations.


My point is, through empathy, we can build values. Values are based on emotion, at base, for literally everyone who has values. Values aren't based on analytical thinking, because how do you decide what's "fair" through math? How do you decide what's "right" or "wrong" through logic? It's not possible without, at base, starting with some emotional value judgement. Using empathy for this is the ideal. It makes you think, ok, "What would I want to happen to me if I were in that situation? Does this accurately reflect their mindset at all?" that sort of thing. Without that, you're just a psychopath. You don't *have* any values, you just go along with might makes right. I don't know how you even have a worldview without specifying first what your values are. That's just nonsense.


We're getting further and further away from the "do whatever is best for yourself and everything will work out fine for everyone" ideology people have, because it's not really the case. People can be shitty, terrible people and it can be good for them, without being good at all for the majority. There's no law of humanity that says we have to be shitty people and have shitty value-less worldviews like you folks seem to embrace. There are systems and structures that may ensure this, but I don't know that it's really built into a person to be shitty. I'm pretty sure there's ways to have a person be both self-serving *and* generally follow an empathetic value system and not be a total fuckhead.


All the same, everything I said is un-researched barely thought through moral philosophy. Gore says if we had robots who had computing that allowed them to process the same exact way we do, they wouldn't deserve rights. That's just retarded. Either you don't understand that the robot is then the exact same thing as a person, just with different components, or you are ok with creating a class of sentient beings who are slaves... Assuming the robots feel like we do, they're then sentient in the same way we are. There's no such thing as a soul. We're just biological machines.


Fucc

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#31 2015-04-08 03:25:27

V.R.
receive {_, _} -> void.
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 5,352

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

gore wrote:

Theoretically, if AI would reach a point of human-level sapience, self-awareness, be able to indistinguishably emulate emotions and look out for its own survival, would you oppose robots having rights?

yes

Then neither should humans.


"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

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#32 2015-04-08 04:22:53

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

IMHO if such robots came to be, and we didn't give them rights, and they were to understand the concept of rights...we'd be fucked.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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#33 2015-04-08 04:28:02

Potato
Member
Registered: 2014-02-26
Posts: 581

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

the basic assumption is that empathy should arise from similarity in cognitive processes or experience instead of material qualities, and pretty much everyone agrees with it, but how would you justify saying that it's "wrong" to not feel empathy for the dolphins that some people eat, when individual emotions, being the foundations of any value system, are supposed to be infallible to logic

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#34 2015-04-08 04:38:52

absentinsomniac
Administrator
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,808

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

They're not supposed to be infallible logically. My point of view is that you start with some base value judgements, and from there you can work logically. Like, once you have one thing established that can't be proven or disproven because it's just a value judgement, things follow logically from that. Like, if we establish some value such that "In general, pain should be avoided where possible" or something like "Your rights end where mine begin" or whatever, then you apply that to various things, logically, and you get wrapped up in a sort of moral implications logic or something.


But not even that, because it's not logic. Some value judgements are just along a spectrum of values. Like how much of this value do you think should be applied since it conflicts with this other value you also agree with. So the whole thing has to be reasoned, as best we can, but the base is still gonna be based on values.


The idea I usually put forward is that most of us have similar base values, with some differences, but we all disagree with each other as to the facts and how they apply to said values. But I think wes disagrees with this and thinks all of our base values are more different than me.


who knows fuck it let's go shopping


Fucc

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#35 2015-04-08 05:11:03

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Isn't religion basically the foundation of "altruism"? Of course this doesn't mean its somehow the "right" altruism but AFAIK most altruists are often guided by religion. This meaning they arent doing it for you, they're doing it for God.

So I say selfless acts are anti-human because they're motivated by God, not inspired by human suffering. This could explain how some people can ignore the suffering of another human...which is from a lack of an actual motivator to assist a fellow member of the species.

Probably one of many animalistic traits. From my understanding, sick or weak or injured animals are often abandoned by their kind.

Of course there is the case of those who may have suffered emotional trauma that motivates them. So either religion or self-suffering instigates altruistic tendencies. Based on this, people who help others for "free" don't really give a crap about you as a human, or have suffered a traumatic experience(thus traumatized into helping).

However if a machine is made, that can not feel like us, nor "believe" like us, I wonder just how it'll develop it's understanding of ethics and morality. This of course has to follow a metaphysical analysis by the machine to determine the true nature of its existence (though having been created by a human for some specific purpose, it won't be a long study). In fact I wonder if a machine could even decide on another metaphysical answer beyond that of what it was actually created for. Imagine a computer that decides it was actually supposed to exist as a ballet dancer.

Some crazy shit sentient AI will cause. I dont even think humanity would be ready for it for quite some time.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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#36 2015-04-08 05:58:36

Potato
Member
Registered: 2014-02-26
Posts: 581

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

you can get a lord of the rings ring for under a dollar on ebay with free shipping. i bought one like a month ago and still haven't received it though

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#37 2015-04-08 10:35:44

Swift
retired commo
From: Australia
Registered: 2012-06-10
Posts: 4,653

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

animal rights is stupid

'animal liberation' is worse

Last edited by Swift (2015-04-08 10:35:56)

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#38 2015-04-08 13:14:29

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Animal liberation is a threat to human civilization.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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#39 2015-04-08 20:22:42

TheWake
Illuminatus Sacerdos
From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

one man's shitty is another man's virtue


The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

WsEkePS.png

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#40 2015-04-08 20:57:34

absentinsomniac
Administrator
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,808

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

No, y'all are just outliers.


Fucc

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#41 2015-04-09 01:59:21

loon_attic
Banned
Registered: 2012-06-08
Posts: 10,288

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

SwiftEscudo wrote:

animal rights is stupid

'animal liberation' is worse

humans are animals, so human rights are stupid?
fuken gommie :D:DDDD


sloth wrote:

Comfy does not provide challenge, challenge provides success, success provides happiness. Our world is not comfy, although we tried to make it so. Slaves of our own inventions, yada, yada. Not only on a technological level, also on a social and political level. Nothing more but apes. Apes with psychosomatic disorders.

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#42 2015-04-09 02:06:00

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Human rights are evil western invention meant to give silly westerners some sort of "moral superiority" over the "barbaric" East.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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#43 2015-04-09 02:10:49

loon_attic
Banned
Registered: 2012-06-08
Posts: 10,288

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

brainiac3397 wrote:

Human rights are evil western invention meant to give silly westerners some sort of "moral superiority" over the "barbaric" East.

that's racist we're clearly superior, that's why you all copies us and speak english
anti-racist is codeword for anti-white


sloth wrote:

Comfy does not provide challenge, challenge provides success, success provides happiness. Our world is not comfy, although we tried to make it so. Slaves of our own inventions, yada, yada. Not only on a technological level, also on a social and political level. Nothing more but apes. Apes with psychosomatic disorders.

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#44 2015-04-09 02:26:32

absentinsomniac
Administrator
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,808

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Rights weren't conceived for  moral superiority, they were conceived as protections. Politics doesn't reflect random sentiments regarding foreign peoples. The lineage of rights runs back through enlightenment thinkers who wanted to advance the idea of innate rights, or god given rights, such that people have certain protections by default, because that's clearly a good way to try to prevent abuses. It *is* morally superior in our conception of morality. Our conception of morality is justified in that it is common amongst almost all westerners. My rights start where your rights end, don't kill / hurt people without justification, that sort of thing.


Fucc

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#45 2015-04-09 02:28:02

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

I'm starting the Turk Sosyalist Dirilis Parti(Turkish Socialist Resurrection Party, or Dirilis in short). It shall a pan-turk movement with a fusion of nationalism and socialism. It shall oppose Western Imperialism and revolutionary progress the Turkic people to an era of modernity!

Last edited by brainiac3397 (2015-04-09 02:28:40)


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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#46 2015-04-09 04:45:00

TheWake
Illuminatus Sacerdos
From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

absentinsomniac wrote:

No, y'all are just outliers.

Good

And

We will skew the mean


The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

WsEkePS.png

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#47 2016-04-12 21:58:36

Deus Vult
Evlutionary Virtue Ethics
From: The Equinox
Registered: 2016-04-12
Posts: 22

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

I think that the more likely reason for these societies failing is that the bargaining power of labour would decrease sufficiently that the owners of the means of production would have absolute power and thus take all the surplus for themselves


One must pay dearly for immortality; one has to die several times while one is still alive.

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#48 2016-04-12 22:03:24

V.R.
receive {_, _} -> void.
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 5,352

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Less Marx and more Lachmann, lefty.


"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

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#49 2016-04-12 22:37:11

Deus Vult
Evlutionary Virtue Ethics
From: The Equinox
Registered: 2016-04-12
Posts: 22

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

V.R. wrote:

Less Marx and more Lachmann, lefty.

I am not a Marxist because I don't believe that a proletarian revolution could ever be successful. Austrian Economics (and mainstream economics) would not apply to such a scenario between labourers and capital owners anymore because aside from possibly a few very small industries the holdup problem would likely eliminate the possibility for gains from comparative advantage between capital and labour. I firmly side against the labourers because they are going to be the losing side


One must pay dearly for immortality; one has to die several times while one is still alive.

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#50 2016-04-12 22:45:09

V.R.
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Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 5,352

Re: Why the post-scarcity progressive automated utopia will fail

Much of the reason for this decay is the fiscal-monetary-industrial policy apparatus of the state subsidizing and regulating an economic order based on advantages to large vertically integrated joint-stock companies with expansive logistics.

There's no reason why a more distributive producerism can't exist now that unit and factor costs have lowered drastically with IT and CNC.

(The fact that most of the so-called "free trade agreements" are little more than Prussian-style customs unions doesn't help.)


"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

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