Topic: Unions irrelevant??

What's DnE's thoughts on unions?

I have been in one union. Yes, it did get me a gig for a bit, but only because I had experience and if I really pressed could have gotten myself at the time. But, they did clear a bunch of red tape.

I have worked as agency in union places. The union guys were generally friendly although one place (a federal hospital), a union steward ended up driving to secluded place with a fifth of liquor and shot himself in the head with a suicide note "dealing with those evil, greedy, political people".

But that's the thing. Rich folks really do not like being told what to do. Hell, I do not like being told what to do, particularly if it is not helpful or against my interests. Particularly in their own place. Almost all the union places I have been were bureaucratic hell holes with unnecessarily strict and spelled out rules and hard to deal with management/ owners that have to entertain it and can not really up and move because they are a hotel or airport or something like that.  Of course, they ask more, the owner can just shut down and re-open with a different name. Remember Hostess bread plant guys? Making sure not to hire any former workers.

Also, unionizing fast food or retail is a pipe dream.  The only ones having fun in fast food are the owner,  middle managers and maybe the store manager only because he/she can screw them and has management experience.  Flipping burgers is not really a satisfying trade unless you own the restaurant.  It has to have some semblance of skill. Not to say cooking itself is not a very detailed skill, and Mickey Ds may very way be a start to a chef career. But, who cares? No one wants to be there and another desperate sap will take the job for 7.50 USD.

Do not get me started on teacher unions, police unions, firefighter unions, etc. They seem to be more political and less dealing with the trade itself, divided into little fiefdoms. Police and Fire unions even solicit  the public as "charities" for stickers that stupid people think is going to make your fire chief bypass someone else's fire to put out yours or a cop letting you off from a ticket.  Or school fundraisers selling trinkets or chocolate that the fundraising company gets 90 percent..

No.

BUT, unions can keep relevance.

Take the Electrician Union. You do not have to work in a place they work. You are free to offer your trade for more or less. You can be a lineman for 30+++ USD an hour or a handyman for a run down apartment complex for 9 USD and hour. They WILL get you a job and help you get the skills if you are a newbie as long as you are not a total fuck up.

Ditto for the carpenter's union or longshoremen or plumbers.

And... they have standards. STRICT apprenticeship/ journeyman/ master titles that have real world meaning. They are not up in the office trying to defend some dude who did not come in with a doctor's note from getting canned.  They are there with lists of jobs and connections if you want to escape an asshole boss, though.

Why aren't more folks looking at unions that way?

Re: Unions irrelevant??

I worked at a grocery store once that was unionized.. it was an obnoxious, beurocratic mess and they took roughly $50 out of my check each month for "union fees" while not actually doing anything beneficial for me


That's really my only experience with unions but it's convinced me they're generally shitty with few exceptions

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Take money out of your paycheck for no visible benefit. If you want better working conditions YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THEM no one else will.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Sharpie wrote:

I worked at a grocery store once that was unionized.. it was an obnoxious, beurocratic mess and they took roughly $50 out of my check each month for "union fees" while not actually doing anything beneficial for me


That's really my only experience with unions but it's convinced me they're generally shitty with few exceptions

Yeah....

It's like if I have to HIRE someone to talk to negotiate because my boss is an asshole, why am I still working for my boss unless I have no choice? If they really wanted to help me out, they would maintain a job list like the temp agencies (without the evil stuff of agencies) do so if I do get fucked, I have another job or at least a good heads up past bullshit for one. Even if it is a short gig.

Oh man, the rules, too. I one time got two demerits

Now, I understand back in the early 1900s, they were working young children, threw you out in the street if you got injured even if the place was a death trap, and worked you till you dropped while the manager worked 28 hours a week. But, nowadays, do they really improve things?

Re: Unions irrelevant??

SaintVicious wrote:

Take money out of your paycheck for no visible benefit. If you want better working conditions YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THEM no one else will.

Fighting for better working conditions is literally what unions are supposed to do as a collective.

the American "union" movement is absolute garbage, and often seems about as useful as the "opposition" political parties that exist in guided democracies, in that they exist merely to tick a perceived box on a checklist of items that render a nation "free" or "democratic".

If you want to see real unions, you'd have to look internationally.

http://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/news-detail/ConstructionMarch11-8330.jpg

a.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Anachronistic but nostalgic longing for a medieval corporatism. Incompatible with capitalist macrodynamics. Rapid flows of labor completely destabilize collective bargaining regimes, so any sufficiently unionized economy tends toward autarky and clientelism.

"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

Re: Unions irrelevant??

wje wrote:

Unions are an indicator of the inefficiencies of government. Or something.

As of right now, all KY Kroger employees excepting those in the pharmacy must be members of the union to work in the store, so I currently lose a small percentage of my paychecks to union fees for, as of yet, completely invisible benefits. Even when I've been there a while, the benefits will only become faint silhouettes in the shape of (impossibly expensive, mostly useless) health insurance and (the barest, minimal) PTO.

Blue collar, "works with his hands" unions might be more or less effective, but I wouldn't know, having never gotten past the first interview [still smoldering].

You are not missing anything. Back in the day, Kroger did not hire me either. Not that it mattered. I think they paid a few pennies over what the other grocery store I did work at paid. But, I am sure that was eaten up by union dues to keep someone a desk job with autonomy at the AFL-CIO and NOT to keep someone for getting canned if they were 30 minutes late to work because of traffic their 3rd time.

The pharmacist deal brings up a point.  Nurses, pharmacists, etc have actual governmental boards and trade associations. Do not meet the requirements? You are not working at a pharmacy unless it is mopping floors or it is attached to a store like Rite Aid. You still can, and will be, fired at the drop of a hat if you piss off the owner as a pharmacist. And yes, you do something messed up like be addicted to your drugs and steal or get legal worries, you will be blackballed perhaps forever unless you go through 20 tons of BS. But, your employer can not just grab a random dude off the street to dispense meds.

Pharmacists also have large trade conventions and meetings to network if the employer lets them get time off to attend. Grocery baggers and butchers and cake decorators do not.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

I like onions. Red onions are good, but not too much. White onion is my favorite.

There are no clear way to learn it unlike html and css who are actually funny to learn and explore.

Quotes:

sloth wrote:

Hold your head down and you won't get hurt. You'll get exploited, abused and spit on, but hey at least you're safe. Fuck that. I have one life to live, and I'll live it my fucking way. Go on. Stand in my way. See what happens. See what happens when a good guy snaps.

sloth wrote:

There are cemetery for living people. They are called "cubicles". And "assembly line". And "McDonalds". And any other full of shit job you can think about. It's where you are dying every day so you can live on a few select days of your life. If you're not to powered out from working.

loon_attic wrote:

everything is shit and people love it because they're hipster masochists or something

absentinsomniac wrote:

she said to eat her out w/ an ice curbe but nah goodnight lol

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Fish20 wrote:

I like onions. Red onions are good, but not too much. White onion is my favorite.

That is racist against native americans, you bigotted fag :3

Hindsight is always 20/20.

God wrote:

A surprising amount of insight can be gleamed from sitting on the toilet. More concerning, however, is the amount of nostalgia. neutral



When in doubt, move north. God bless suomi.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Yellow ones are the worst though.

There are no clear way to learn it unlike html and css who are actually funny to learn and explore.

Quotes:

sloth wrote:

Hold your head down and you won't get hurt. You'll get exploited, abused and spit on, but hey at least you're safe. Fuck that. I have one life to live, and I'll live it my fucking way. Go on. Stand in my way. See what happens. See what happens when a good guy snaps.

sloth wrote:

There are cemetery for living people. They are called "cubicles". And "assembly line". And "McDonalds". And any other full of shit job you can think about. It's where you are dying every day so you can live on a few select days of your life. If you're not to powered out from working.

loon_attic wrote:

everything is shit and people love it because they're hipster masochists or something

absentinsomniac wrote:

she said to eat her out w/ an ice curbe but nah goodnight lol

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Just gonna leave this here http://libcom.org/library/unions-introduction

Re: Unions irrelevant??

I made a yuge bigly post about unions here somewhere.

Basically, we used to have good unions. Then they became mafia unions. Now they're political unions. None of that old-school "for the workers, by the workers" stuff remain. Just lots of bureacuracy and talk. Sometimes they achieve success, but when they're achieving success they don't seem to be doing much useful stuff.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Virtue wrote:

Just gonna leave this here http://libcom.org/library/unions-introduction

That is beautiful.

It is not irrationally hateful, nor cave to BS. Has very interesting solution.

Thank you.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Green1 wrote:
Virtue wrote:

Just gonna leave this here http://libcom.org/library/unions-introduction

That is beautiful.

It is not irrationally hateful, nor cave to BS. Has very interesting solution.

Thank you.

That site has me questioning whether my avatar is either an aesthetic decision or a subconscious ideology.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Yeah...

Only thing about an "international" solution is the tendency of people to only give a fuck about people they see. Yes, the internet. But, for the most part, people used the internet only to meet people like themselves. Some places, particularly in Asia, the working drones can not even reach us due to firewalls and censorship.

But, it beats the Crimethinc / new anarchist model where you resist by dressing up in black and bash in a Starbucks window or fuck some private limo owner if he did not get comprehensive insurance. Then, head off with your trust fund to the Social Outrage event of the season protest hopping. Yeah, that will show the people far away in a gated community where you can not see the mansion from the road sipping on scotch.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Are you fucking kidding me man? Dressing up in black to crash liberal NGO protest circle jerks and smash shit is a fantastic hobby that more young people should take part in.

You get to ruin shit for liberal normies and take out your anger on shitty businesses, banks and state goons, what's not to love?

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Virtue wrote:

liberal normies

Are a radical lefty's best ally, goy.

"Humanity Is Overrated" - Shrek

18 (edited by Green1 2017-02-08 15:55:33)

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Virtue wrote:

Are you fucking kidding me man? Dressing up in black to crash liberal NGO protest circle jerks and smash shit is a fantastic hobby that more young people should take part in.

You get to ruin shit for liberal normies and take out your anger on shitty businesses, banks and state goons, what's not to love?

Great fun, sure. Networking? Sure. But you do not really hurt the people you want to.

You give the leftards purpose. An enemy gives movements solidarity to be against as opposed to being ignored makes movements phase out.

The shitty businesses being vandalized? The people that are high up may get a memo on it or get a new negative number on a spreadsheet but they are in another state. They will sleep soundly in Their king sized bed in a McMansion community hundreds of miles away and still get off at 2 PM on Friday. You just made some wage slave have to clean up after your trust fund baby ass and some overworked manager have to take more heartburn meds and miss his one day off. Gee, thanks. That will show those capitalist pukes.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Wow haha Virtue is like a sarcasm machine or parody or some shit

There are no clear way to learn it unlike html and css who are actually funny to learn and explore.

Quotes:

sloth wrote:

Hold your head down and you won't get hurt. You'll get exploited, abused and spit on, but hey at least you're safe. Fuck that. I have one life to live, and I'll live it my fucking way. Go on. Stand in my way. See what happens. See what happens when a good guy snaps.

sloth wrote:

There are cemetery for living people. They are called "cubicles". And "assembly line". And "McDonalds". And any other full of shit job you can think about. It's where you are dying every day so you can live on a few select days of your life. If you're not to powered out from working.

loon_attic wrote:

everything is shit and people love it because they're hipster masochists or something

absentinsomniac wrote:

she said to eat her out w/ an ice curbe but nah goodnight lol

20 (edited by brainiac3397 2017-02-09 01:02:31)

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Green1 wrote:
Virtue wrote:

Are you fucking kidding me man? Dressing up in black to crash liberal NGO protest circle jerks and smash shit is a fantastic hobby that more young people should take part in.

You get to ruin shit for liberal normies and take out your anger on shitty businesses, banks and state goons, what's not to love?

Great fun, sure. Networking? Sure. But you do not really hurt the people you want to.

You give the leftards purpose. An enemy gives movements solidarity to be against as opposed to being ignored makes movements phase out.

The shitty businesses being vandalized? The people that are high up may get a memo on it or get a new negative number on a spreadsheet but they are in another state. They will sleep soundly in Their king sized bed in a McMansion community hundreds of miles away and still get off at 2 PM on Friday. You just made some wage slave have to clean up after your trust fund baby ass and some overworked manager have to take more heartburn meds and miss his one day off. Gee, thanks. That will show those capitalist pukes.

So what you're saying is we do it 1863 Draft Riot style and storm the rich bastards' homes?(at 18 sec)

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Exactly.

Problem is there is no "black bloc" out of getting caught from that.

Those suburb communities will call out SWAT and kill you.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

V.R. wrote:
Virtue wrote:

liberal normies

Are a radical lefty's best ally, goy.

https://derpicdn.net/img/2015/5/28/905696/thumb.jpg

a.

23 (edited by Virtue 2017-02-10 07:36:35)

Re: Unions irrelevant??

If you look at protests going on in the US they're always just the same circle jerk of liberals and some generic inoffensive leftists. To use them as an excuse for property destruction is one of the best things you can do with them. Honestly I just fucking love hearing liberals whine "you're making the REAL PROTESTERS™" I can't help but take amusement from that.

One actual practical effect is that it can actually incite rioting and further public insubordination and intensify struggle. As more people join in you'll find average workers out doing your typical professional revolutionaries in rioting. The nationalist right in Ukraine understood this very well during Euromaidan by encouraging an intensification of rage against the existing state.

I like this passage from an article I was reading on Japanese radicalism in the 1960s which I think is relevant to the discussion.   

At sect-led demonstrations, hordes of unaffiliated onlookers gathered to hurl taunts and stones at the police. This was not because they sympathized with the students' cause. Rather, many were depressed by their still unfamiliar urban lives and sought a form of entertainment that would not cost money. The Mainichi Shimbun reported that during an April 1968 protest against construction of a US army hospital, the youthful crowd chanted "This is fun!" while hurling rocks at police.xi In the October 1968 Shinjuku Riot, it was not sect students but crowds of factory workers, restaurant clerks, and white-collar workers who engaged in the most destructive acts; in fact, sect students attempted to curb this behavior. Violent clashes with police had become a form of entertainment. High school students interviewed in the magazine Shokun in 1969 reported that, ignoring ideology, they joined the protests of whichever sects seemed more likely to engage in violence.xii

The point here is that many disgruntled workers would gladly take such an opportunity to unleash their rage.

Since I've mentioned Japanese radicalism I would highly recommend reading up more on the Zengakuren and their activities. The "Narita Airport Struggle" in particular is a good example of militancy done right, in which Zengakuren members united with and organized impoverished farm workers to violently fight back against the construction of an airport over their land.

If anyone is interested here's another a goodie from libcom https://libcom.org/history/zengakuren-j … y-students

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Virtue wrote:

If you look at protests going on in the US they're always just the same circle jerk of liberals and some generic inoffensive leftists. To use them as an excuse for property destruction is one of the best things you can do with them. Honestly I just fucking love hearing liberals whine "you're making the REAL PROTESTERS™" I can't help but take amusement from that.

One actual practical effect is that it can actually incite rioting and further public insubordination and intensify struggle. As more people join in you'll find average workers out doing your typical professional revolutionaries in rioting. The nationalist right in Ukraine understood this very well during Euromaidan by encouraging an intensification of rage against the existing state.

I like this passage from an article I was reading on Japanese radicalism in the 1960s which I think is relevant to the discussion.   

At sect-led demonstrations, hordes of unaffiliated onlookers gathered to hurl taunts and stones at the police. This was not because they sympathized with the students' cause. Rather, many were depressed by their still unfamiliar urban lives and sought a form of entertainment that would not cost money. The Mainichi Shimbun reported that during an April 1968 protest against construction of a US army hospital, the youthful crowd chanted "This is fun!" while hurling rocks at police.xi In the October 1968 Shinjuku Riot, it was not sect students but crowds of factory workers, restaurant clerks, and white-collar workers who engaged in the most destructive acts; in fact, sect students attempted to curb this behavior. Violent clashes with police had become a form of entertainment. High school students interviewed in the magazine Shokun in 1969 reported that, ignoring ideology, they joined the protests of whichever sects seemed more likely to engage in violence.xii

The point here is that many disgruntled workers would gladly take such an opportunity to unleash their rage.

Since I've mentioned Japanese radicalism I would highly recommend reading up more on the Zengakuren and their activities. The "Narita Airport Struggle" in particular is a good example of militancy done right, in which Zengakuren members united with and organized impoverished farm workers to violently fight back against the construction of an airport over their land.

If anyone is interested here's another a goodie from libcom https://libcom.org/history/zengakuren-j … y-students

Precisely.

Now, the whole thing about "paid protesters" the Right puts out is wrong. No one gets "paid" to do this other than maybe an organizer who gets first dibs on any donation money.

Most of the protesters are upper middle class people with tons of time that "protest hop" from outrage to outrage and have the money to do so and are not oppressed in the least. In fact, they look down on anyone less fortunate. When one scene dies down, they converge on another.

I remember I scouted out an Occupy movement in the city I was in. They kept bitching about having to feed the homeless that would show up because it was a place to stay without being harassed by cops. It intrferered with them networking, getting laid, and supporting each other. Hell, wasn't one of the tenants of the Occupy movement the fact where the one percent were oppressing folks so badly that people could not find housing??

Or going to Ferguson and causing drama, but not giving two shits about the real poor blacks that are stuck in a racist poverty ridden hellhole and can not get out because they can not just jump on a plane and not work for a month. They have to continually work for maybe the 3 employers that will hire them and pay most of this to some landlord who may live 3 states away. There is no time to better one's self. They no no one who does and it is an alien concept and only seen on TV fantasies and rapper dreams.

Of course not.

If there is no money in it, no one cares.

Re: Unions irrelevant??

Why no more 60s esque revolutionary protests and stuff? Those were like best of both worlds. A protest against something and organized to be physically aggressive. Is it because of these "silicon valley" liberals who may have never experienced the difficulties of being working class?

IMO Dems and Repubs are both totally disconnected from society and both enjoy manipulating us. Otherwise, the working man continues to suffer while the rich grow no matter who is in power. Maybe we need some healthy class warfare, not partisan warfare.

"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:


^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet