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#1 2016-03-01 14:19:41

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,751

Nicotine / Cognition

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … l_students


Apparently it doesn't work at high doses (3x dose of cigs in this), but this study seems super weak. So many factors being ignored imo. But I guess it's possible that cognitive benefits are reduced at high dosages.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 8486800038


The conclusion here is borderline retarded imo. Ignores so much, 4mg is a massive dose wtf. What a claim lmao. It claims nicotine is actually bad for problem solving in general, but they use this overdose level of nicotine... That's like concurrently smoking 4 cigarettes all at once, with no previous nicotine tolerance. Absolutely stupid.


http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002130050514


Need to read paper to see what they mean by "memory". Episodic? I have a feeling strictly looking at patches and cognitive function will be necessary as other methods of admininistrationon is drenched in confounding factors.


http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n … 1423a.html


As I thought


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#2 2016-03-01 16:15:57

Green1
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Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

The delivery method is Snus, a packet of nicotine in paper that was marketed as an alternative to chewing tobacco without all the nasty spit cups.

Did they go into the fact that Snus is just nasty and cognition would be affected because of the taste of burning shit in your mouth as you fight the urge to puke if you are not used to oral nicotine?

Also, yes, Snus has more nicotine, but it does not hit you all at once like smoking 4 cigs or vaping a high nicotine mixture.  It has to be dissolved in slobber then go through the skin in your mouth to get to bloodstream. So, the mg dosage of the Snus is not all the nicotine at one time.

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#3 2016-03-01 16:27:21

Green1
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Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Not to mention other factors that improve/decrease cognition that have nothing to do with nicotine. No drug alone can do that if they are unfamiliar with the material, partied the night before and did not get rest, have a natural talent towards the subject, exercise, etc.

I will say that nicotine is a known anti depressant and can theoretically keep you from going into depression mode so you will study at the expense of addiction and athletic health depending on delivery method. But, there are too many other factors the paper does not consider. Only that it wants to defeat an urban legend in that part of the world. Who funded it?

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#4 2016-03-01 18:19:09

absentinsomniac
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Posts: 16,751

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

The 4mg study I'm referring to does not specify administration method, the first link and second link are two different studies. I would need to access the article through my school (if it's available) to see if it's immediate release or injection or whatever, but since they don't specify, I think that's a safe assumption... I'll check when I get home later. Who writes an abstract leaving out that *key* information, though? The first one specifies snus... Snus isn't pure nicotine by any means, it's a form of smokeless tobacco, which means it comes with MAOI's and other mixed compounds + whatever the company infused into it. These are confounding factors that can't be ignored, imo. The second link doesn't test against academic performance and directly tests against cognitive tasks they do in the lab.


Most statistical methods allow for variability and can take out some level of noise person-to-person, so with a decent sample size there's less risk of small factors throwing things off, and they controlled for several things like demographics, gender, etc. I haven't read the papers yet but chances are they did an ok job in that regard. The third and fourth papers are also both seperate studies of their own that support the notion that nicotine in isolation does have some cognitive benefit. I'm just trying to prove to myself that memory isn't adversely affected at all, and is in fact positively affected by small / medium doses of the stuff, which seems to be the truth. I can't find any negative effects from small doses of nicotine. And when I say small, I mean probably like .25mg / hour or something. Most people will get very sick / light headed / not be in good shape if they were getting 1 mg/hour with a level 1 nicotine patch, so even if the snus only let out 1mg/nicotine at a time into the bloodstream, that's still way too much for nonsmokers.


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#5 2016-03-01 18:22:43

TheWake
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Posts: 8,272

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

so absent, WHAT'S THE VERDICT?


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#6 2016-03-01 18:24:56

absentinsomniac
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

I think so far the best thing I can say is "With small to moderate doses of nicotine, there is a cognitive benefit." Large doses of nicotine, I can't say for certain, but I think the benefits go to zero, and sometimes in the negative if you use too much at a time. But that's really tenative and I can't find any good studies, let alone meta-studies or anything that supports this notion, and the studies that do support it seem like they're done very badly.


A very good, long research summary is here: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine but it doesn't address some of the concerns I'm trying to deal with here.


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#7 2016-03-01 18:25:30

TheWake
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Posts: 8,272

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

so basically we don't know


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#8 2016-03-01 18:27:10

absentinsomniac
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Yeah, we don't know if large doses reduce the benefit to zero.


We do know for certain that small to moderate doses have *some* cognitive benefits, but I need to do way more work to make sure it doesn't negatively affect some kinds of memory and improve others (episodic vs long term vs blah blah). There's way more I haven't read or gotten to yet that I will.


https://examine.com/supplements/nicotine/


^ Also a good research summary


Also here's a actual clinical trial that shows benefits over 6 months via transdermal patches: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22232050

So yeah there's really good evidence for the positive aspects of reasonable doses.

CONCLUSION:

This study demonstrated that transdermal nicotine can be safely administered to nonsmoking subjects with MCI over 6 months with improvement in primary and secondary cognitive measures of attention, memory, and mental processing, but not in ratings of clinician-rated global impression. We conclude that this initial study provides evidence for nicotine-induced cognitive improvement in subjects with MCI; however, whether these effects are clinically important will require larger studies.


When it says "global impressions of change", that means the patients couldn't tell if they felt smarter or not, but the study bears out that they were.


Just, the details need sussed out which I'm hoping there's studies for. I know there's at least 1 meta-study I haven't looked at.


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#9 2016-03-01 19:52:19

TheWake
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

That's really interesting.

I guess nicotine ain't so bad. ;)


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#10 2016-03-02 02:27:43

absentinsomniac
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

I applied 1/8th of a 21mg 24/hour release patch. Initially, it got me pretty high. After about 2 hours, it was more consistent and I was less high. I just took it off after wearing it for about ~6 hours. I still feel the effects. Probably will for a bit.


Should be helpful for studying, that's fer sure. Apparently the patches release the most as soon as applied, then slowly reduce. That lines up with my experience. And to think I only used 6 out of the 24 hours from 1/8th of a single patch... Damn, that's nuts.


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#11 2016-03-02 03:08:09

Green1
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Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Try sleeping with that on.

One of the side effects is vivid, multicolor dreams.

Do not smoke with it on unless you want heart palpitations and careful for addiction.

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#12 2016-03-02 03:09:42

absentinsomniac
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Green1 wrote:

Try sleeping with that on.

One of the side effects is vivid, multicolor dreams.

Do not smoke with it on unless you want heart palpitations and careful for addiction.

yeah I think I will over the weekend maybe. I have pretty fucked dreams as it is, though, so I'm a bit scared lol.


I only ever really smoke when I'm drunk anyway though. I think it's much less addictive than cigarettes because it lacks maoi's and other shit


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#13 2016-03-03 11:51:27

absentinsomniac
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Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Yep, wild dreams indeed. Can't remember most of it because I'm stressed but very vivid, and I only slept for like 2 hours.


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#14 2016-03-03 13:50:38

Green1
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Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

absentinsomniac wrote:

Yep, wild dreams indeed. Can't remember most of it because I'm stressed but very vivid, and I only slept for like 2 hours.

Isn't it? lol!

I have had numerous run ins with nicotine patches trying to quit smoking over the years. The only thing that came of it was the vivid dreams. Though, I was successful for a few months one time. Until one day, I had a really stressful day at work (people on my ass, workload, etc) and someone gave me a cig. I was back to a pack a day in no time.

I noticed something, though. I know the Equates (generic) are supposed to be the same mg as the Nicoderms, but the Nicoderms always seemed stronger.

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#15 2016-03-03 15:26:27

sloth
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From: Spurdoland
Registered: 2012-06-17
Posts: 7,807

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

I always "stop" smoking when I use the ecig. I use it for a while and then I stop it completely, until times get very stressful again and I start again - usually snatching a cig from somebody like a hobo ("Eh bum got a ciggy?").
But the smoke hurts my lungs, and I quickly fall back to the ecig. Idk. Smoke is gross, except for one certain type of smoke...

Patches are strange. Never had em, but can't really get behind the idea since you have nothing to play with in your hands when you use em.

Last edited by sloth (2016-03-03 15:26:54)


Hindsight is always 20/20.

God wrote:

A surprising amount of insight can be gleamed from sitting on the toilet. More concerning, however, is the amount of nostalgia. neutral

When in doubt, move north. God bless suomi.

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#16 2016-03-03 15:41:05

Green1
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Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

sloth wrote:

I always "stop" smoking when I use the ecig. I use it for a while and then I stop it completely, until times get very stressful again and I start again - usually snatching a cig from somebody like a hobo ("Eh bum got a ciggy?").
But the smoke hurts my lungs, and I quickly fall back to the ecig. Idk. Smoke is gross, except for one certain type of smoke...

Patches are strange. Never had em, but can't really get behind the idea since you have nothing to play with in your hands when you use em.

I have been contemplating vaping.

I did have one of those Vuse ecigs for a while because I dated a respiratory therapist about 2 years back and had a year long stint of ballroom dancing where I was overly conscious of smoke being on me being that close to other folks for the showcases and such I had to go to back then.

But, the ecig was not satisfying. It was only to keep me from niccing out in places I could not smoke for hours and so my gf at the time would fuck me and I could sneak and smoke at work during 12 hour shifts. It was hilarious. Before she would come to the apartment, I would air the place out for hours and bleach everything to hide it.

At my current workplace, lots of folks use actual vapes, though. I never see them with cigs. Could be because they are broke. Could be because the nice vapes actually work and the ecigs are crap.

It would be better if it works, though. Smoking in the house leaves a dingy residue on everything that stays dingy no matter how much you clean. And, to be honest, I get too lazy to clean like that everyday.

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#17 2016-03-03 19:15:56

sloth
WITNESS ME
From: Spurdoland
Registered: 2012-06-17
Posts: 7,807

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Effects strongly vary on what nicotine content the liquid has. VapeSticks (one time ecigs) don't do shit for me.
But an ecig with refillable liquid, I can decide how much is in it myself. Usually 12 mg, sometimes 18mg. 36 for heavy smokers seems to work.
Everybody I know wants to get off cigs so that's cool. General consenus is that it's still harmful but not as harmful as tobacco.


Hindsight is always 20/20.

God wrote:

A surprising amount of insight can be gleamed from sitting on the toilet. More concerning, however, is the amount of nostalgia. neutral

When in doubt, move north. God bless suomi.

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#18 2016-03-03 19:51:17

TheWake
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From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

I've never smoked and I've been using patches to see if it helps with my anxiety and nervous tics. It's not a super big help but I've enjoyed it. I don't use them daily for fear of a tolerance.


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#19 2016-03-12 05:21:34

absentinsomniac
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Posts: 16,751

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

>> be playin fucking game on steam in chroot because fuck yh
>> was tired as shit
>> feel pretty fucking good all of the sudden
>> Not tired at all feeling pretty chill
>> put hand on face, feel something on my wrist
>> It's a nicotine patch I took off and left on my desk
>> it's on my arm
>> oh.


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#20 2016-03-12 06:06:24

Green1
Member
Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

Okay...

Do not smoke if you already do. You can OD. Won't probably kill you unless you have heart stuff going on, but sucks hard for your heart.

What brand are you using? The name brands seem to be better constructed and deliver better.

You will have less appetite. It is also an antidepressant. It is addictive. Cool dreams, though.

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#21 2016-03-17 09:35:39

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,751

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

This study concludes that for those who are already operating at an optimal level, nicotine may reduce cognitive benefit, but for those operating at a sub-optimal level or are in general cognitively impaired, it can have significant benefits.


http://www.pnas.org/content/98/8/4728.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24766971


Again, they used gigantic doses of nicotine. 2mg of oral nicotine administered. That's a ton, and it's almost instantly absorbing a gigantic amount. I feel very real effects from fucking 1/8th of a 24/hour release 21mg patch which means I'm getting fucking ~0.109375mg PER HOUR*. 2mg all at once is fucking dumb. The subjects were probably fucking sick...


21mg / 24 hours =  0.875mg / hour
0.875mg / 8 (1/8th of one patch) = 0.109375mg / hour.


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#22 2016-03-17 09:46:10

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,751

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443126


"In summary, nicotine improved attentional performance in both groups and was associated with greater improvements in inhibition of impulsive responses in subjects with schizophrenia. These results confirm previous findings that a single dose of nicotine improves attention and suggest that nicotine may specifically improve response inhibition in nonsmokers with schizophrenia."


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#23 2016-03-17 18:01:55

TheWake
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From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

snus is amazing


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#24 2016-03-17 18:44:44

sloth
WITNESS ME
From: Spurdoland
Registered: 2012-06-17
Posts: 7,807

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

TheWake wrote:

snus is amazing

Also thought of Snus in this respect.


Hindsight is always 20/20.

God wrote:

A surprising amount of insight can be gleamed from sitting on the toilet. More concerning, however, is the amount of nostalgia. neutral

When in doubt, move north. God bless suomi.

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#25 2016-03-17 18:48:47

TheWake
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From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: Nicotine / Cognition

sloth wrote:
TheWake wrote:

snus is amazing

Also thought of Snus in this respect.

I did it for the first time. Such a head buzz I was having trouble focusing on driving.


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