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#1 2016-02-21 20:43:44

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,751

[analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

So, I'm planning on writing a blog post. (Actually, several on several topics...) It's a little political. We agreed not to write political blog posts. I think, though, if I include any caveats others have and keep it moderately objective, and also include a *does not necessarily reflect views of this site or it's users" kind of thing, and it's not like objectively something we would argue over (e.g. minimum wage is good!, heavy gov. investment during recession is great!) then we won't have a downward spiral of hap-haphazardly written reply-posts to deal with and our collective weak ass feelings won't get hurt too bad.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 0102800090


http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/ … eotype.htm


Very interesting reading. Below are some choice quotes from the first section of the atlantic article, which is written by one of the authors of the study.


But virtually all aspects of underperformance -- lower standardized-test scores, lower college grades, lower graduation rates -- persist among students from the African-American middle class. This situation forces on us an uncomfortable recognition: that beyond class, something racial is depressing the academic performance of these students. ...


My colleagues and I have called such features "stereotype threat" -- the threat of being viewed through the lens of a negative stereotype, or the fear of doing something that would inadvertently confirm that stereotype. Everyone experiences stereotype threat. We are all members of some group about which negative stereotypes exist, from white males and Methodists to women and the elderly. And in a situation where one of those stereotypes applies -- a man talking to women about pay equity, for example, or an aging faculty member trying to remember a number sequence in the middle of a lecture -- we know that we may be judged by it. ...


Pain is lessened by ceasing to identify with the part of life in which the pain occurs. This withdrawal of psychic investment may be supported by other members of the stereotype-threatened group -- even to the point of its becoming a group norm. But not caring can mean not being motivated. And this can have real costs. When stereotype threat affects school life, disidentification is a high price to pay for psychic comfort. Still, it is a price that groups contending with powerful negative stereotypes about their abilities -- women in advanced math, African-Americans in all academic areas -- may too often pay. ...


This is exactly what Aronson and I found. When the difficult verbal test was presented as a test of ability, black students performed dramatically less well than white students, even though we had statistically matched the two groups in ability level. Something other than ability was involved; we believed it was stereotype threat. ...


We presented the same test as a laboratory task that was used to study how certain problems are generally solved. We stressed that the task did not measure a person's level of intellectual ability. A simple instruction, yes, but it profoundly changed the meaning of the situation. In one stroke "spotlight anxiety," as the psychologist William Cross once called it, was turned off -- and the black students' performance on the test rose to match that of equally qualified whites.


That is just what happened. When black students were told that the test would measure ability, they completed the fragments with significantly more stereotype-related words than when they were told that it was not a measure of ability. Whites made few stereotype-related completions in either case.


What kind of worry is signaled by this race consciousness? To find out, we used another probe. We asked participants on the brink of the difficult test to tell us their preferences in sports and music. Some of these, such as basketball, jazz, and hip-hop, are associated with African-American imagery, whereas others, such as tennis, swimming, and classical music, are not. Something striking emerged: when black students expected to take a test of ability, they spurned things African-American, reporting less interest in, for instance, basketball, jazz, and hip-hop than whites did. When the test was presented as unrelated to ability, black students strongly preferred things African-American. They eschewed these things only when preferring them would encourage a stereotypic view of themselves. It was the spotlight that they were trying to avoid.


I can even recognize a good deal of this type of thing in my own academic performance under pressure, or social performance when I'm thinking about my shortcomings, or what have you. It seems pretty obvious to me, on the face of it. There's been quite a few studies after this which have confirmed. There's even a meta analysis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19025250


We had a thread on here I made previously regarding the possibility of genetic affects on black average intelligence. I posited that it seems incredibly unlikely that blacks in general have lower average intelligence, as the biology just doesn't make sense for that to happen. Still, when you actually go out and measure even middle class blacks intelligence, it's lower on average. I posited that it's possible there are societal reasons for this. This furthers that theory. It seems increasingly unlikely based on this and the Flyn effect etc that there's a real genetic inferiority between blacks on average and whites on average.


Genetically speaking, as I said in the previous thread, the diversity between black populations makes it very difficult to make a case that they would, as a group, have some kind of weird group deficit. This usually only happens in groups within a specific population from some common origin who interbreed within said group. The diversity of the black population doesn't lend itself to this happening pan-Africa lol. Not to mention genetic overlap between whites and blacks is such that any given white and any given black might be more similar than any given two blacks. It just doesn't add up that blacks are inherently less intelligent to me. It would require all of the blacks in question to have a common genetic difference. I can't even imagine what that might be. Skin color doesn't affect intelligence. It's possible there is something, but it just seems to me to be incredibly unlikely at this point. I think we need more study to be conducted specifically on societal and psychological impacts on performance.


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#2 2016-03-07 21:42:18

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 16,751

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

http://openpsych.net/OBG/2014/09/geneti … -analysis/


This seems pretty good, but idk I'll have to check it out. It invokes the bioecological model which is pretty interesting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioecological_model


Appears to be written by a few professors so it probably checks out. http://staff.scmb.uq.edu.au/staff/john-fuerst


Also cross posted here http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/su … 1.668.3893


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#3 2016-03-08 19:30:38

SaintVicious
Jewing Intensifies
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 7,029

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

white people - god tier
black people - shit tier

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#4 2016-03-08 21:42:28

SheBurns
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Registered: 2014-11-09
Posts: 657

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

SaintVicious wrote:

white people - god tier
black people - shit tier

what am I

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#5 2016-03-08 22:13:31

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

A vagina?


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

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#6 2016-03-09 15:35:10

Green1
Member
Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

As much as a few scientists put forward that humans have breeds much the same way as dogs have (Ie: a beagle is not as intelligent as a collie), maybe it is more role models, culture, and stereotypes?

I know some very intelligent folks of all races. But, their talents do not lay with mathmatics and sciences. But, in sociology, networking, and business, they do successfully.

Maybe they are smarter. Maybe it is class perspective. It is very profitable, for instance,  to be a landlord, more so than the "hard" subjects you have no interest in when all you want is time and paper. With the trades, you can eventually be your own boss with a lot less start up. And, when it comes down to it, why bust your ass to be the only one of your kind and still not get a job or beg this shitty white bitch at HR to hire you because of a 5 year old misdemeanor when the cops fucked with you when you can be your own boss with that intelligence and NOT jump through rat race hoops? This includes pointless standardized tests.

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#7 2016-03-09 17:09:16

TheWake
Illuminatus Sacerdos
From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

damn, no matter how you stack it, it's good to be white

barring being middle aged working class white male with no education. their life expectancy is actually going down lel. largely due to substance abuse and suicide

Last edited by TheWake (2016-03-09 17:10:40)


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#8 2016-03-09 21:25:08

brainiac3397
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From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

The breed thing stretches it. Our "biggest" differences seem to be nothing more than basic biological "aesthetics" due to adaptation to our environment.

Other species adapt by evolving into different species of something. We adapt by utilizing our intellect and ingenuity. We don't need much biological "evolution" beyond ending up with traits that help us better fit into our location. We are relatively on the nurture side as a species.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

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#9 2016-03-09 21:40:45

TheWake
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From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

As a species, but as individuals we are a lot more on the nature side I think.

Take, for example, height. Increasing height over generations is a decent indicator (with some caveats) of a population growing healthier and better nourished. However, at the individual level, it can depend a lot more on genetics. I'm white and 5' 7" in the USA because of genetics, not malnourishment.


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#10 2016-03-09 21:44:27

absentinsomniac
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Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

The dog parallel couldn't be further from the truth lol. Dogs were selectively bred. Not even domestic cats or other pets have that kind of variability. There's literally no parallel in normal evolution. While all dogs are the same species and all humans are the same species, nobody selectively bred any given race. Further, race is a way bigger subset than any given "breed", across much larger populations. It's more similar to like, black labs vs yellow labs or something.


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#11 2016-03-09 22:00:59

TheWake
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From: Yankee-Occupied South
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 8,272

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

One MIGHT could make generalizations about certain closed off ethnicities that practiced strong endogamy. Like certain populations of Jews, Samaritans, the Amish, etc. But one cannot make these same generalizations about the most genetically diverse race in the world.

Last edited by TheWake (2016-03-09 22:01:46)


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#12 2016-03-09 22:02:38

absentinsomniac
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Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

Yeah that could be argued, but I still think that's not a good parallel as it happened over vastly longer timeframes than most modern dog breeds with much less cross breeding and selection for traits. Selecting for arbitrary blood line isn't the same as intentionally selecting for some skill.


In the context of the larger argument that's a fair point.


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#13 2016-03-09 23:02:36

loon_attic
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Registered: 2012-06-08
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Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

black people don't just have different AESTHETICS, also better athletics or whatever i guess
who cares, there are people from all races who are much smarter and better at math than I
although I guess there are different proportions... :p


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Comfy does not provide challenge, challenge provides success, success provides happiness. Our world is not comfy, although we tried to make it so. Slaves of our own inventions, yada, yada. Not only on a technological level, also on a social and political level. Nothing more but apes. Apes with psychosomatic disorders.

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#14 2016-03-09 23:24:45

absentinsomniac
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Registered: 2012-06-09
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Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

That's not nearly as true as you might think.


Athletic differences are relegated to those with specific ancestral backgrounds. Not all blacks put into the Olympics win long-distances races, just those of Kalenjins descent, and the reasons for that are many. There's *some* evidence they have some genetic advantages wrt body shape and what not. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14527638


The Atlantic article I linked in the last thread is rife with errors. This is a good review of what the author got wrong: http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-scien … d-imagined


^ I found that after trying and failing to find a study the Atlantic article cites, which doesn't even fucking exist exist. In general it seems no news websites should ever be trusted when it comes to scientific reporting. There's also been some speculation that the same kind of assumption that whites will never beat blacks is causing white trainers and athletes to actually stop training for times after a specific threshold. I can't find the study, but there was a well cited study that had this as a conclusion. Edit: Here it is: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/34/5/391.full


The periodic domination of middle and long distance running by different regions of the world is not a new phenomenon. Researchers are yet to confirm a genetic or physiological advantage in being a middle or long distance runner of East African origin, and it is most likely that the reasons for their success are many. The belief that East African success is due to uncontrollable stable factors will perpetuate the current level of domination.

...


Although many factors contribute to East African running success, present caucasian belief and attitude systems may be a significant perpetuating influence. Until our athletes, coaches, and support staff accept responsibility for their own performance, the current level of athletic domination by East African athletes may continue.


Like the reverse of what's going on with blacks and I.Q. If you read that whole study review, it becomes increasingly clear that there are way more factors than genetics at play here. In fact, there are some muscle fiber results in East Africans that you would expect to reduce endurance... Like this isnt' a simple matter of "lol they're just genetically better". It's not even clear that all of the elite Kalenjins are any better than other elite runners from other nations, there's just a subset of a subset of Kalenjins's that accounts for like 1 percent or less of Kalenjins's that actually make it to the Olympics. So it's not clear if there's a genetic advantage, that a significant percentage of even Kalenjins's have that advantage, let alone other blacks.


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#15 2016-03-10 00:40:06

Green1
Member
Registered: 2015-10-21
Posts: 713

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

absentinsomniac wrote:

The dog parallel couldn't be further from the truth lol. Dogs were selectively bred. Not even domestic cats or other pets have that kind of variability. There's literally no parallel in normal evolution. While all dogs are the same species and all humans are the same species, nobody selectively bred any given race. Further, race is a way bigger subset than any given "breed", across much larger populations. It's more similar to like, black labs vs yellow labs or something.

But... we did. And breeds vs races is relevant.

In the Southern US circa 1800s, we tried to "breed" a working class. Slaves were stuck with other slaves to hopefully fuck. Did not work, and folks stopped it, fighting a war. They did not win, because in oppressing a significant part of your population, you don't advance as fast. The North crushed the South. Same with the Third Reich who ignored a lot of science for prejudice.

If you really look at the genetics, melanin only accounts for a minor part of our DNA on the order of the same amount needed for eye or hair color. Even different breeds of dogs have variations on color of fur.

Now, can we engineer a working class? Maybe. A person with a brain structure and physical stamina  to cope with egos, find corporate policy as interesting as fundies find a Bible and make someone else's dreams work?, Maybe, but it backfires and takes tons of resources. A genetic, robotic salesperson used as an AI because nothing available are convincing enough or don't get sick because life can suck? Maybe.

I think THAT is the elephant in room, barring all studies, religions, cults, whatever.

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#16 2016-03-10 00:46:57

brainiac3397
Machiavellian Amoeba
From: A Dimension of Pure Insanity
Registered: 2013-12-20
Posts: 4,914

Re: [analysis][paper] On the black-white IQ difference

Should note humans are naturally good runners. Us white people just decided that using our brain was better and with our luck in the resources and stuff, we fucked over the blacks and totally undid their centuries of development.

Technically Asians would be the whites of the world if they weren't so busy murdering each other so well and being jingoisitic nuts. The Chinese were building giant ships that could travel the world while white Europeans were picking fleas from each others hairs. Or something.


"Creepy crazy fucking idiot Nr. 873894532"-aCol

Wes wrote:

^^ funny
this guy
the most well written and verbose shitposter on the internet

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